Self Defense classes

[sillindiedar]

I have a real problem with so called self defense classes, I mean how can you teach someone a natural instinct. I have taught hundreds of students in the past, and there are those that I have advised investing their money in a good set of running shoes. Real defensive prowess comes from within, in that if you have not the heart to defend yourself, no-one can teach it you to. You can learn a myriad of nice moves, but without the heart they become worthless gestures. Opinions please.

[Extremes]

"Lacking confidence about self-protection is the mind´s subliminal message to the body that more training is necessary to overcome fear."
- Translation of the 'Bubishi' by Patrick McCarthy (is there another translation in existence?)

[northern_arts]

Here's my view, which I preface by saying I haven't really applied CMA to fighting but I have been in a few scrapes and also successfully avoided crimes by using common sense. I am not a self-defense expert and I have never taught a self-defense class.

I like people like Macyoung that teach crime avoidance. I've used his advice to avoid bad situations where I believed I would be the victim of a robbery and/or beating.

I don't think much of a lot of self-defense classes I have seen taught at my university. I think that in the case of the seminars I saw(2 or 3) a lot of what was being taught was moves without context. Since a lot of CMAs teach the context of fighting and how to put it all together I think they are good. I just read a book called "Chinese Boxing Synthesis" where the author James Cravens says there are four stages of a fight: entry(direct or indirect), bridging/interface/touch, forward pressure, and finishing. There are other theories and approaches. I've heard people on this board talk about free movement, clinch, and ground. The self-defense courses I've seen don't address this at all. What they have done is show how to break grabs and holds. These seminars often happen around "take back the night" rallies.

This kind of gets back to what TigerLi and Bolo were saying on another thread. I believe that once bridging has occured you have to apply forward pressure to continue. You may step back momentarily but I think you have to go at the attacker - whether head on or off-angle on a diagonal(or even behind if you used a stealing step to enter) depending on how the entry occured. I'm concerned that a person who attends one of these workshops might break a hold but not really stop the overall attack because they lack an approach to the fight. I think they might break a grab but end up getting pulled in or taken down because they didn't see a bigger picture. I wonder if they could deal with the forward pressure used by the opponent immediately as the grab/bridge is happening. They could get lost as the attacker is pressing for the advantage. Even an excellent counter-grabbing technique is useless if you let the opponent continue forward into an advantage in the clinch. I would like to see people taught to go into the forward pressure/clinch with the goal of gaining the advantage to throw or strike. The self-defense classes I've seen teach people to break a grab(shake off the bridge) and then run away.

Just my opinion keep in mind my comments above when responding to it. I'm just giving you my impression of what I saw based on my understanding.

[KHor]

The self-defense classes I've seen teach people to break a grab(shake off the bridge) and then run away.

Yes but that is exactly the point of self-defence classes is it not? The people taking them are not taking them to learn to fight per se but to get out of the situation quickly and get away to safety. Anything that can surprise an attacker and give the person enough time to get away is a good thing. If they really wanted to learn combat they would study a traditional MA style not a quick fix self defence class IMO.

[sillindiedar]

My point is this, no matter how well a student learns if they do not have that self preservation bone, it will be like trying to teach a fish to walk. Have had some competent students that just fold under pressure, so what are their real chances against a nasty individual spitting hate at them.

[yilon]

You cannot teach self defense in a class. You can teach techniques that will aid in self defense. However, self defense is based upon self respect. If a person lacks self respect, no amount of training or techniques will allow that person to achieve self defense.

As has been frequently pointed out in this forum, one of the best techniques for self defense is to avoid situations that will require active self defense. However, the time will come when avoidance is not enough. At that point you have to hurt someone so that they will not hurt you. If you cannot face that reality, you have no self respect.

In my particular case, I have to live in the streets on a day by day basis. I deal with everyone from scum to real hard cases. My attitude is such that people do not mess with me because I have enough self respect that I will fight back. I also have enough training, experience and rage that if I fight back, my opponent will be lucky if he is only severely injured. Finally, I don't give a damn what happens to my opponent.

Thus, I achieve 99% of my self defense merely through my attitude. Even the hard cases greet me politely (What say, Willie Green?). Possible opponents see me well treated by the hard cases and they think twice. Thus, I avoid most trouble because of my attitude.

JMHO.

[Bolo]

Self Defense seminars? Give em an 'assitance whistle' or a can of maze and the odds are about even. You get out what you put in.

On the other hand I've found my training in WC especially, made me a much more aggressive/intense fighter than I had been.

[KZMiller]

As with any teaching, you have to be sensitive to who you are teaching. A LEO? A recovering rape victim? College students? Sometimes all a college student needs is a 'go confidence team!' rally to bump them up above the easy victim line into a predator's 'pass' catagory. Self-defense for people who have suffered from abuse or a rape should be taught by experts who have training in working with them and if one turned up at a dojo or a weekend seminar I would really, really hope that the instructor would refer such a person to the right group. If you can't even get a kiai out of someone or get them to strike in the direction of a person or take a firm grip, they will need extra help, whether a former victim or not.
I feel weekend self-defense seminars are good for someone who is already physically confident and ideally has some MA background already and just wants to learn a few dirty tricks. They're fun. I've taken quite a few and one of the tricks I learned worked on my husband, which is really something, as those of you who've rolled with him know.
Of course, as is true with any training, you find out if the person is qualified. The unfortunate thing with self-defense courses is that most people who have been certified to teach in their style assume that they're automatically qualified to teach self-defense. This is a dangerous assumption. It's a specialty field that's separate from teaching regular classes. Teaching self-defense requires refined knowledge and judgement; what to teach, how to teach it, how much to show, how in depth or how simple, and keeping an eye out for those abuse victims so they don't try to take their knowledge home the next day to fight back against their abuser and end up in the hospital or getting killed. Or take it home to play with siblings or a spouse and end up unintentionally hurting them.
IMHO it takes more preparation to teach self-defense seminar than a MA seminar geared for people already studying MA. It's not just the instructor's reputation on the line when they offer a self-defense course. An instructor should be prepared to refer people in need to local agencies and shelters rather than just trying to entice new students into their school, or getting the ego boost of having a rapt, captive and naive audience, or blindly believing they're performing a community service without realizing the potential consequences.
Gee, that sounded kinda ranty. Oh well, I'll stand by it.
In humble offering, Kami

[SteveP]

Well said KZMiller.
I think that self defense can be dangerous if not taught properly. Taking a weekend to teach some of these "life-saving" moves will get somebody hurt. How long does it take you to learn an aspect of a form? I mean really learn it? Learn it so that you can apply it under pressure as a matter of instinct? I'd wager longer than a weekend. I'm not saying there aren't good self-defense courses out there, just that alot try to go too in depth in too short a time. Having said that......

My point is this, no matter how well a student learns if they do not have that self preservation bone, it will be like trying to teach a fish to walk. Have had some competent students that just fold under pressure, so what are their real chances against a nasty individual spitting hate at them.

Define "under pressure", as I believe that the pressure in a full contact match inside the relatively safe haven of a kwoon or dojo is entirely different than the pressure of someone trying to rape you. I don't think that you can ever be sure how someone will react, until the situation arises. (God forbid.) And, how hard would you fight for your life - training or no?
This is just my opinion.
Peace, Monkey

[KZMiller]

Actually, a quick web search will reveal a huge body of research and statistical analysis regarding fighting back, at least in regard to rape, and whether it's helpful or worse. It's one of those things that a self-defense instructor needs to be read up on before he teaches self-defense. Rape prevention is one of the reasons a woman shows up for such classes and it needs to be addressed.
It makes me wonder if anyone has put as much effort into more general assault; what the breakdown is for fighting back vs. taking a more passive role. Maybe assault is too general to study ... too many varied circumstances, from the bar fight to muggings to robbery to attempted murder, etc. Even within rape there are many different types of rape and rapists, though they have been broken down in a fashion useful for self defense. If you have your wits about you, and time, you can analyse your attacker's type and use the info to your benefit.
Re: Pressure
You can pressure a student so that they respond as if the situation is real, or at least real enough for them for training purposes. This is not something an instructor should do unless A) their uke is armored or very tough and experienced and B) They know how to deal with the aftermath. Heap enough pain or trap someone, even in a friendly and familiar environment, and they will slip into fight/flight response. Sometimes even a verbal provocation or hypothetical situation will do it. For example, I got trigged by a sentence during a sparring session. "Kami, when he's through with you, he's going for Andrea." Andrea being my daughter. My sparring partner, a very experienced and excellent martial artist as well as an LEO, saw my look change and covered up, going into full defense. In the back of my mind a very small part of me was aware enough that this wasn't real so I did pull my strikes ... barely. I certainly hit much harder than I would have just playing around, harder than I consider advisable, much less polite. If Mac had kept pressing me instead of covering up I think it would have obliterated even that small bit of control. I'm glad I didn't hurt him. Suffice it to say that it is possible, sometimes shockingly easy, to sink a person's awareness of their 'safe' environment and have them training under pressure. Techniques vary. I hear some instructors will suddenly engage a student in the dressing room after class, or grab them from behind when they're not paying attention during down time in class. Gets the adrenaline pumping.
With a normal, healthy person who hasn't had trauma in their lives or has dealt with it adequately, this is a great tool. However, the B caveat is there for a reason. Trigger a rape victim, and when she comes out of her attack (or panic) she will fall apart emotionally and you better darned well be prepared to help. You can't just leave someone broken down and figure it was a great, intense session and they learned something. If you don't know your psychology you can get into trouble and leave an emotional mess that will do that person more harm than good.
-- Kami, who wishes she didn't have so many friends who've been raped.

[snakefightscrane]

An honest self defence class is like an honest martial arts class, it will give you a better understanding of how you can and will handle yourself in a real situation (and part of that is understanding that you CANT understand a situation until you have been there, oh the paradoxes).

A dishonest self defence class is, like a dishonest martial arts class, is the most severe degree of fraud possible, its like sending a GI into iraq with a gun that unbenownst to him contains only one of those little "BANG!" flags you see on cartoons as a child. You have just robbed someone of their ability to realisticly assess a situation that could cost their life.

[Cdnronin]

If someone is willing to take the time to lrean a martial art, digest it, and figure out the most effective moves for them(may be kicking, possibly punching or throwing) that is great. Of course most people wil not take the time to train for several years.

If you had a friend who was going to jail in several days, so your training time was limited, what would you teach him for defense? Is this time for kata or forms? fancy 360 degree kicks? Or basic techniques that have a high percentage return?

No you can't turn someone into a warrior in a weekend, but if you can teach a simple gross motor skill strike(hammerfist or inside edge of boot kick as examples) you may be giving someone more of a chance than standing there like a deer in the headlights. And yes, the whole idea is stun and run, if you don't know how to fight, why would you want to stay there? Thumbs in the eyes, and leave.

[Jamie_Clubb]

I get what Sillidiedar is saying. There is an expression that you "can't make a racehorse out of a donkey", but Geoff Thompson insists that he can make anyone competent in self defence. I have seen and heard some amazing breakthroughs with students. Then again, I've seen and heard model students who crumbled under pressure.

This is very much the essence of self defence combat as far as I'm concerned: "pressure testing." It's not pretty and I look at it with love-hate eyes. Away from this, though, the most important areas of self defence are awareness, communication skills and, above all common sense.

It short, I don't really know either, but I'd like to think we are all capable of defending ourselves with the right teaching.

[Electrophile]

I have seen and heard some amazing breakthroughs with students. Then again, I've seen and heard model students who crumbled under pressure.

I think this comes not from physical training, but mental training and energy. The mental training in that you have to approach real self defense situations with the eye of the tiger backed up against a wall. Model students might have gorgeous kicks and forms, but in some ways, they may think too hard if ever encountered with a real attack. Tempering our animal instincts to fight with control and some fundamental basics is the way to go. Complicated self defense techniques with multiple locks or throws are great to watch, but just like when you slip on a patch of ice on the sidewalk and don't necessarily slap the ground just right while falling correctly on your side, the fundamentals might be all you have if you get mugged or raped.

According to the statistics I've seen, women who resist rape are no more likely to be seriously hurt than women who do not and darn right I'd do all I could to resist maybe short of ripping out his throat (maybe even that...we'll see should the situation ever present itself). Another helpful idea is to drink alcohol responsibly if you do decide to drink. Drunken boxing style aside, a great preventitive idea if there ever was one.

[Jamie_Clubb]

Electrophile,

If you have read the majority of my posts on self defence you will know that my approach to it is around two thirds mental/psychological before we get to the physical aspects. Even in my most recent post I speak of pressure testing, which is the only way to really see how someone responds under stress.

Jamie