Combative Martial Arts vs Traditional Martial Arts

by **kenpoman** on Thu Oct 19, 2000 16:13

I see knowledge of guns serving 2 main purposes. One, knowing the function of such weapons teaches what they are realistically capable of. As Robin said, bullets are fast and the action of someone on a trigger is a lot faster than a lot of people think. Many people may simply want to believe they have the techniques and speed to overcome any type of firearm encounter. Second, if you are in a life and death situation, knowledge of the function of today's weapons can give you just enough of an edge to stay alive. For example, did you know a standard issue 45 has 3 safeties?...And one can be automatically locked in by striking the barrel head on? Worthless info? Guns are common. It's better to know something than know nothing...

by **fat samurai** on Fri Oct 20, 2000 12:47

Hi Streetsafe!

I do not know if Geoff Thompson has a website, however i know that the 'system' he teaches is his own based on years of working on the door, and a huge amount of M.A. training, he calls the system the three second fight. It is basically learning to keep self control and try and use verbal defence and posture as much as you can, but as soon as you feel that the situation is out of hand, you must hit first, and then end it (in under 3 seconds). He is an author on many books about fear, and controlling your anxiety whilst on the door.

I think his approach is the most modern and realistic that i have seen, especially for those working as doormen, who may have to rely on these skills for life or death.

I will try and find a website for you to look at Streetsafe.

Best Wishes F.S.

------------------ "i can catch a fly with chopsticks!"

by **Xiao Ni** on Wed Oct 25, 2000 08:45

Geoff Thompson wouldn't happen to teach Zen Do Kai would he??

Anyway, what is BJJ?

<<My problem lies in folks learning how to use weapons like guns and then never having it around when it's needed. The people who learn to use those external weapons for self-defense are also law abiding citizens and won't carry the gun when it's illegal--which it very often is. >> (from Robin)

I couldn't agree more. There was a post somewhere about using a belt as a weapon. You are more likely to have a belt than a gun

 <<However on another note I seen instructors fail to teach their students modern defense techniques due to their proud attitude that their system has all you need to know for defending yourself. >> (from Streetsafepro)

I was just thinking about how Bruce Lee developed JKD for the then today, but that is old. Things change, but these arts/sciences don't. The style may work in certain circumstances, but there are places it won't work. The same goes for Kung Fu, korean and japanese arts.

I know a lot of people will disagree, but what I am thinking is hard to put into words.

Danny

[This message has been edited by xiao ni (edited October 26, 2000).]

by **memnoch** on Wed Mar 07, 2001 05:41

Ya know, when I read someone saying that skilled martial arts people should not use weapons, I just cringe. If you want to deny yourself effective weapons, go right ahead. "If he is armed, and you unarm him, why use his weapon on him and damage him more than neccesecary if you just can run or punch/kick him in his abdomen? " Beacuse he tried to kill you, and you don't know for sure that he does not have another weapon on him. I carry a back up to my primary blade, as do many people. If you are lucky enough to knock my primary out of my hand its gonna be a kick to your knee as I back up and go for something else, like maybe as ASP baton(16 inch) or a JSP V-Gar(steel and titanium Garrotte, www.bladerigger.com look on the sitemap and then for the V-Gar). That kind of thinking in the quote i mentioned sounds like the idea of liberals. You know, say NO assertively and if the guy still approaches, say no again. Martial arts is not about beign nice. Its not about sportsmanship or honor. Its about going home intact, and it just may include making sure the other guy never goes home. Deal with it, realise it, accept it, or not. Makes no difference to me. Kempoman had a good point when he said"I think MA training should include modern weapons training. I consider familiarity with the weapons on today's streets much more beneficial than training with a 1000 year old weapon that one will probably never, ever come across...like the Japanese boat oar or a the sai. " I'd just like to add a cavat that one should not ignore weapons that have proven themselves useful in modern ages even though they come from antiquity. Knife murders happen and people are attacked with bats and stick. It does help to know their use. As to the .45, well, I think we know who is a 1911 head, don't we... It's the 21st century man, get a Glock!! (kidding) You can knock a .45 out of battery by that hit, but if they guy moves the gun back a bit it reengages, so i would recomend offlining and grabbing the slide so even if he fires 1 shot you have stopped the gun from chambering another one. robin said "Columbine, what would knowing about guns have done if you were there? " Well, one kid had a hi point model 995 9mm carbine like the one in my closet. #1 its a POS that costs 200 dolars, so beware of buying a cheap gun #2 it has a 10 round magazine, so after the 10th round you have a 2-3 second window to charge the bastard, or to run very fast from cover. #3 the gun is not that accurate, more a close up and personal, inside your home, i dont like shotguns but want something to defend my house gun #4 weapon is malfunction prone and mine was picky with the ammo. if i did not feed it hardball or very smooth JHP weapon does not feed well if at all. if the gremlin bought hydrashock or black tallon, guess what, the gun is probably going to have PROBLEMS LIKE NOT CYCLING AND HE HAS A CLUB. By the way, did you know that on S&W semiauto pistols if you can hit the mag release the gun will not fire a round even if one is chambered. If you can jam the person drawing and smash the gun you may be able to turn a $700 S&W .45 into a semi effective club. Glocks and Sigs do not have this feature, so it pays to know that too. Berretta pistols can have the slide removed even if a round is chambered, or so i have heard. Oh, so I guess knowing firearms is useless. I started out in TKD and got into weapons 3 years ago. TKD did not teach me jack about knives, sticks or flexible weapons, but it helped me pick it up faster than starting from scratch. Any experience in any combative art, high school wressling to JKD will help you pick up weapon skill. Its timing, tempo and rythm that aid in weapon skill. Fight sports give you that. Ok, rant mode off. if anyone wants to contact me for further discussion, <a href="mailto:marblecat1@aol.com" target="_new">marblecat1@aol.com</a>

by **JaseP** on Wed Mar 07, 2001 16:26

You said or intimated several things I strongly disagree with. I will express my counter-rants: 1) Traditional arts do not mean incompetance and lack of training in self-defense. Its just that they emphasize the full learning of technique and its application rather than just what is necessary to get the job done. When the fad of "modern combat arts" has faded, traditional arts will still be around, weathering out the newest fad... 2) Martial Arts ARE about HONOR!!! If they were not, then it would just be brawling. There is no socially redeemable thing in just learning to brawl. Just because we are about honor does not mean that we advocate that a person use an ineffective strategy in self-defense. If you have to bite off a finger, then you do it. If you don't have to, then don't (it can get you in a world of trouble afterwards, besides). It's about becoming a better person. 3) A Staff or an Oar are functionally similar to a bat or club or pipe. A knife is a knife. A sword is similar to a machete. The main difference between a knife and a gun is that you just have to stay out of the forward firing line. Training in defense against the older items gives you an idea of defense against their modern equivalent.

by **Mongo** on Thu Mar 08, 2001 02:33

Heres my thoughts on this, 1. True traditional arts were designed as FIGHTING arts. The american take on them has turned many into sports. For example did you know that traditional Tae Kwon Do has throws, arm, locks, lots of hand techniques, and ground fighting. These were thrown out by most people in favor of those things that scorred points in tournaments. Now there are manny black belts in Tae Kwon Do who dont even know half of the art. 2. Like the brilliant gentleman before me just pointed out guns are for real. Shure the highest ideal in the martial arts is not to get into a fight. However since I dont think I am in the presence of anyone who can always be perfect and have perfect judgement you might learn something about guns in not how to shoot them <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_razz.gif"> 3. Kowing about guns could have helped in the shooting this week in California(a state where guns are essentialy illegal). The kid came in with an 8 shot .22 calliber revolver. He shot 12 people and killed two. Now I want to know how the hell he reloaded without someone stoping him. Most kids carry enough books in their backpack to stop a .22. I know I did in high school. Unfortunatly most people these days are so scarred of guns and have no idea about them. Or know nothing about them and think that their martial art will save them at 10 feet. Sorry it wont. 4. One of the school shootings was stoped by a teacher who went out to his school and got his .45 1911(for you shooters out there) and stoped the kid a gun point. 5. In many states in America they have consealed cary permits. That means you can carry a weapon if you want to. Including guns knives and swords(if you can conseal one). So access is reasonable for alot of people. Plus which you can have one in your home almost anywhere in america. 6. I know my spelling and grammer is horrible. I wrote this in a hurry.

by **memnoch** on Fri Mar 09, 2001 11:26

How does learning how to turn another human into liver patte make you a better person? Have you ever stopped to think why learning how to viciously assault another person fosters self control? Its because you look at the person taunting you and are thinking"Y hand strike to the throat, your dead. punch you in the solar plexus and elbow your scrawny neck, dead. knee in your balls, eye gouge and grab your throat sending you into a plate glass window, dead" You have the ability, you have the opportunity. hell you have the motive cause the guy is a shi+, so why dont you do him? its because if you have the dicipline to have learned all that wonderful stuff, you most likely have the self control to use it only where appropriate. The restraint in NOT using what you have learned makes you a better person, and respect for your teachers and fellow students gives you honor. Its a teaching and Dojo aid, its a by product rather than a fostered goal in and of itself. Martial arts are about turning your attacker into ground up meat. Honor is about respecting your fellow students and not doing a ridge hand to their groin in practice cause you are loosing the sparring match. if you want to take honor into a fight for your life, ok. i have no intrest in doing it. are weapons honnerable? "WEAPONS ARE FOR COWARDS!!!!!!" get real. they exist, they are useful, they are everywhere. If you want to live in a padded floor, single unarmed opponent dream world, be my guest. My world involves cement, curbs, broken glass, multiple armed opponents and the only padding is a wool coat that may be somewhat useful in deflecting a glancing blow, but i dont plan on finding out. Happy dreaming.

by **SLC** on Fri Mar 09, 2001 19:57

Beware of the 1911 Colt myth. I have heard of several people who have the hole in their left hand proving it CAN fire with the muzzle pushed in. <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_eek.gif"> A very good friend of mine was shot through both calves <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_mad.gif"> by his copilot demonstrating this to their crew chief. The copilot also receive the distinctive hole in his left hand. <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_eek.gif"> Stuart

by **SLC** on Fri Mar 09, 2001 20:25

I hate to see an argument between folks about whether it is "proper" to carry/use a gun or knife for self defense ...on the basis of "honor". To me, this confuses the life-long study of martial arts and one's dedication to its basis in honor and peace, with a simple committment to survival in a confrontation. Empty-handed combat was not created because its stylist felt it would be way cool to beat up on armed people, empty handed. They did it because class or circumstances meant they didn't or couldn't always have weapons. It was a make-do alternative in a nasty situation, not a primary art. The primary arts were weapons based: fencing, archery and the spear. "Only coward's use weapons"? <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_confused.gif"> How about, "There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there ain't any old bold pilots." Don't bring your honor to a gun or a knife fight. Bring your complete determination to do what it takes to survive.

by **JaseP** on Fri Mar 09, 2001 20:50

On 2001-03-09 06:26, memnoch wrote: "How does learning how to turn another human into liver patte make you a better person?" -Simple, being free of fear and aggression every waking moment, allows you to be a person you should be, were meant to be. "Have you ever stopped to think why learning how to viciously assault another person fosters self control? Its because you look at the person taunting you and are thinking"Y hand strike to the throat, your dead. punch you in the solar plexus and elbow your scrawny neck, dead. knee in your balls, eye gouge and grab your throat sending you into a plate glass window, dead" - Sounds like someone has too much pent up aggression. If you were my student, I wouldn't let you to black belt with that attitude. But you aren't so it's none of my business, except to express my opinion. "You have the ability, you have the opportunity. hell you have the motive cause the guy is a shi+, so why dont you do him? its because if you have the dicipline to have learned all that wonderful stuff, you most likely have the self control to use it only where appropriate. The restraint in NOT using what you have learned makes you a better person, and respect for your teachers and fellow students gives you honor. Its a teaching and Dojo aid, its a by product rather than a fostered goal in and of itself." -So your only goal is to learn how to be more violent in your life? The lesson you value more is just preserving your own selfish life? Not in acting correctly in society? Not in peaceful self-confidence? Not making your life better as a result? Just a by-product? I disagree. "Martial arts are about turning your attacker into ground up meat." -No they are not. Maybe in about 15 years you will come to this realization too. I say this because you seem young (perhaps not). Being able to grind someone up as meat is a by-product of Martial Arts training. Otherwise its just self-defense training with nothing more important added. Then why use tradition? Why use honor? They aren't effective teaching/training aids if your goal is turning out killers. A Marine DI will tell you that. "Honor is about respecting your fellow students and not doing a ridge hand to their groin in practice cause you are loosing the sparring match." -No. Honor starts with that and continues on in your life... "if you want to take honor into a fight for your life, ok. i have no intrest in doing it." -Fine. Just do me a favor and never train in my beloved Tang Soo Do, stick to other styles... I don't want to have to debrief my students as to proper mentality after being exposed to a "grind em up as meat" philosophy. The "honorable" thing in defending yourself means using any means necessary to defend yourself as long as a serious threat continues and stopping when it has abated. This mentality will also keep you out of serious legal trouble. Since this is a "Korean Arts" Thread; Five point code of the hwa rang #5: Never make an unjust kill. (Modern Translation: In conflict choose with sense and honor). "Happy dreaming." -Dreams, sure. Reality, definitely. Ideals? Where do THEY fit in? I argue that the right ones fall squarely in the reality catagory. You are welcome to disagree.

by **memnoch** on Sun Mar 11, 2001 01:26

I know that one too, it read in my Dojang "Consider all alternatives before killing any living thing" "Just do me a favor and never train in my beloved Tang Soo Do, stick to other styles... I don't want to have to debrief my students as to proper mentality after being exposed to a "grind em up as meat" philosophy. The "honorable" thing in defending yourself means using any means necessary to defend yourself as long as a serious threat continues and stopping when it has abated. " That won't be a problem, I would not want to bring reality into your Dojang. I do not have a grind them up as meat philosohy, its more of a cutting style than a grinding, but I do on occasion practice fast tight repetative cuts to the attacking limb so I guess that could be considered grinding. Your deffinintion of honor seems to be legality, something I agree with. You also are advicating a proportionate responce, again something I agree with. What I disagree with is the concept of playing fairly when your life is on the line. We can disagree with each other as to the meaning of martial arts. Fine. You can call me a person with repressed hostility and say you would never give me a blackbelt. OK. I've already got that in TKD, and have no desire to study tang soo do. If anything, I'd rather go into Filepeno styles that are more conscerned about survival that honor. I think that why you have to rely on martial arts to teach good manners, respect and dicipline you have a lost cause. I learned that through mom and dad, religion and school. When I began TKD I had those things and could concentrate on the important things I was paying for like learning to keep my rear end in one piece in a circa 1990's public high school. Yes, I am young. 22 yrs old. No, I am not in High School now, I graduated in 96 and have a BS in Criminal Justice and am doing post grad work now. The lessons I value mostly in martial arts are how to protect myself. Selfish person, aren't I? I think you must be a school owner or an instructor. You get payed to baby sit the kids for an hour after school, and you cant teach the 5-10 yrold crowd without teaching them how to listen, how to be quiet and respect other people, so you teach them those things through school rules and codes of an art. OK, Good for you. If discipline is enforced at home you may have a chance to aid in the developement of a decent human being. I'm not dealing with that, nor do i care for that to be included in my lessons. I want to learn the most effective methods of self protection I can. If that means the "meat grinder personality" as you call it, YES. You can be a baby sitter all you want, but don't ask me to be the reciepiant of that.

Website · by **matrixninja** on Sun Mar 11, 2001 19:16

I agree with JaseP. Without honor what do you have? Nothing! That is what makes the world a bad place to live in now, nobody cares any more. Thats is all i'll say for now. [ This message was edited by: matrixninja on 2001-03-11 14:17 ]

by **JaseP** on Mon Mar 12, 2001 03:03

I have plenty of reality in my Dojang, Memnoch. As an example of what I mean, I don't think you would want to face one of my black belts in a life or death struggle, if you both had to. I also have plenty of honor and discipline in my Dojang as well, and when I don't I have a lot of squat-jumps in their place. Since I have been training in the same art about 2-2.5 years shy of the total time you have been alive, I'll keep my own counsel of whether I teach my student's competantly, and with reality in mind or not. (Not to be demeaning, or anything). My instructor who has been training about the total amount of time I have been alive has no problems with them (and he had been somewhat of a brawler in his Brooklyn NY, pre-martial arts teens, so he knows reality). Oh, and I don't teach after school... and easily 1/2 of my students are adults.

by **StreetSafePro** on Wed Mar 14, 2001 00:28

Ah some good thoughts and comments were addressed, and they are just some of the differences that sets apart combative training from the traditional methods taught today. The combative training emphasis on survival in todays violent society. Geared for one purpose, surviving a nasty street altercation. What I like most about combative training is how it addresses the issues of developing the necessary skills of defending onself. Some of the skills that can be acquired from combative training are use of the use of weapons, be it blunt, edged,or projectile. In the use of the weapons includes the overall knowledge of the weapon, a little history about the weapon, its use , its retention especiallly in CQC, and its limitations. Tactics and strategy are also taught in conjunction with proper mind set which is an absolute if you want to survive an altercation. Now not that these aren't taught in tradtional teaching, it just depends on how knowledgeable and experience the instructor is in close quater combat or in close fighting. Not sparring. Yes sparring does help you develop the necessary fighting skills in timing and rhythm. Addressing the legalites of our justice systems as it pertains to civil issues in matters of self defense are covered quite extensively, because you might survive the altercation, but will you survive in court after the altercation. You may have your honor and your sense of self rightousness about you, but in the courts they seem to frown down upon martial artist due to sterotypes that the media has created. Traditional martial arts can be for everyone because it places development on a wholelistic sense. Where its aim is to develop character, decent moral obligations to ones family and country, and promotes good health through the vigorous training. Combative martail arts on the other hand is not for everyone. Its a speciality. In both schools of thought one element remains constant between the two. You must train and train hard to be effective. Peace Out for Now..... <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_cool.gif">

Combative Martial Arts vs Traditional Martial Arts

Who is online