Combative Martial Arts vs Traditional Martial Arts

[StreetSafePro]

This is my first topic, and I'm not sure if this has been discussed on this forum or not, but I would like to know what other martial artist in the classical sense have added combative training to their MA. And what combative elements were added.

Understanding that some MA are already combative ie, jeet kune do, wing chun, Thai kickboxing, bando, silat and kali.

For example I'm a Hapkido stylist and have infused elements of combative training to my HKD training geared towards street defenses.

I have talked and trained with a many of instructors and students from different schools to share and exchange ideas and techniques.

In the past seven years or so I have been teaching this combative matial arts, I have realized that the core of my teaching is no longer classical but now combative. Meaning that emphasis is clearly on learning true self defense. This is not to mean that I'm dissing any system or stlye of MA. However I notice that there are some elements of the classical HKD that has been put on the back burner, and advanced skills taught at the turning of novice into intermediate level.

For example HKD has immoblization techniques but aren't taught until intermediate or advanced are attained.<BR>In real life these skills are important<BR>because of the CQC, close quater combat. So these skills are introduced in the beginning.

Another important infusion is the attribute development which is necessary for proper mind set.

Forms are taught but not for the emphasis of competing but for learning good basic balance and understanding of ones tools as it may apply to self defense. But as a rule I don't teach forms until after the first year or so. Now some may argue and dispute this, but this is one of main differences between classical verus combative.

I like the infusion of the FMA as it changes everything dramactically. Especially the weapon training aspect. The weapon training here is purley combative right from the start. So instead of teaching weapons in a form like manner, now its interactive and now you can see how having these skills are a plus to any system in a real fight situation.

Now I truely feel that all MA have to some degree or another some combative elements. What are the ones that you have singled out and trained religiously for.

Hopefully as the thread grows I will share some our combative training tips and techniques. <IMG SRC="http://www.cyberkwoon.com/ubb/cool.gif">

Peace Out...

<BR>

------------------<BR>Larry R.

"Truth in the way of combat is percieved from moment to moment" ...

[matrixninja]

I like your post, when you say"MA is not a sport" thats true.

But its sometimes fun to compete, you have to have some kind of fun, even when training to defend ones self.

------------------<BR>-------------------------------------------<BR>"Believe the unbelievable":--The Matrix--:<BR>-------------------------<BR>"He who searches for all the answers dies in disapointment"--ABBY BERKOWITZ<BR>------------------

[kenpoman]

You brought up a very good point, Robin....the one about putting on pressure in a tournament. Learning how to stay focussed in an uncomfortable situation is a transferrable skill and this mind-set can be incorporated into just about every other aspect of MA training.

The mention of guns also brings up a good point. In my opinion, I think MA training should include modern weapons training. I consider familiarity with the weapons on today's streets much more beneficial than training with a 1000 year old weapon that one will probably never, ever come across...like the Japanese boat oar or a the sai.

[Robin]

In learning any martial art, even unarmed, you are learning the motions to use if you have a weapon. If you make a spearhand technique, could that not translate into a stab with a knife (and look where you're aimed, too). The sai, I know a form with the sai, can also translate into a knife.

To think that you can use a weapon only if you're trained in it is one dimensional. To think that the weapon you're trained in is the only one you can use is one dimensional. To think that you can't use a weapon because you've been trained in empty hand only is one dimensional. We are physically three dimensional human beings, and there is a fourth dimension, which is theoretical. This also is true of the martial arts.

[Belindi]

I didn't mean it that way, Robin. If you come in a fight with an average unarmed man, you would probably, after the time you have practiced martial arts, knew that you would win. If he is armed, and you unarm him, why use his weapon on him and damage him more than neccesecary if you just can run or punch/kick him in his abdomen?

But I totaly agree with your saying that <BR><B>"In learning any martial art, even unarmed, you are learning the motions to use if you have a weapon. If you make a spearhand technique, could that not translate into a stab with a knife"</B>

Very well said, Robin.

[brandona]

In my opinion there is a growing practical need for people to learn how to really defend them selves. For that reason I don't see that there is a traditional versas sport, but rather what works or doesn't regardless from where it came. Martial meaning war and Art meaning a form of expression. I am not that expressive when I am attacked I want to resolve conflict asap and go on my way. In regard to weapons, there are tons of laws to get you introuble for defending your self with one, not to mention just have it to carry around can become a false sense of security for alot of people.

[fat samurai]

Fat samurai's hot tip: Don't ever try and grab someones knife whilst simultaneously punching them in the head.

As for the topic, i feel that people who have reached a high level in their martial arts should not need to ue a weapon, and should certainly not need to use a knife on someone who you have disarmed. Also i feel that whilst you can not learn to use a weapon through empty hand training you can gain the co-ordination and speed to be able to pick up weaon skills very easily.

[kenpoman]

Learning a weapon's use, function, and strengths is an ideal way to understand its weaknesses.

[fat samurai]

Ha ha! i live in England <IMG SRC="http://www.cyberkwoon.com/ubb/biggrin.gif"> no ghettoes over here!<BR>As for Jerryloves comment about ten people armed with pistols 10 feet away. This is very unlikely to happen unless i was in a war or some other likewise situation. I think what i would do is make sure that they were not pointing them at me, and run like crazy.

------------------<BR>"i can catch a fly with chopsticks!"

[Robin]

If that happened where I was, I think I'd move.

[Robin]

Trouble will always be where you find it.

Yes, there are people who do those things out there. But, personally, if I had to face that on a daily basis, I'd find some way of moving out.

Now you're going to tell me that sometimes you can't move out--that there's no place to move to, or you can't get to the place where that stuff doesn't happen (because it happens elsewhere). Go ahead. Tell me this. I'll wait to respond.

[Robin]

Peabody, MA. Move on over.

[Robin]

A lot of folks talk about "today's society" like people have become more violent. Wrong. We've been this violent since we began as a species. There are simply more people on earth today than ever have been, so the occurance of violence in different places has a greater chance. But to tell me to "wake up and smell the coffee about society"--wake up and smell the dung of all the society previous that built this one.

If you have the gall to use a gun, go ahead. Not everyone does, as not everyone has since the invention of the gun. Does that mean those who do not choose to learn how to use a gun are unsafe and are walking targets for murder? Does that mean those who are not versed in the way of the gun should live in fear and barricade themselves in their homes? Unless you're the quickest draw in all the land, if some guy pulls a gun on you, you are not going to have time to draw your weapon, no way in he!!--unless there is a martial art on gun drawing, as there is in sword drawing as a Japanese Sword technique. But then, when this weapon was used in Japan, did everyone feel the necessity to train in it in order to feel safe in their society? Were they not safe? Were they all killed? Did they all live in fear in their society?

Even if there is a martial art in this, your gun can still get you killed. There is no safe bet. There is no insurance. There is no 100% safe. Am I as safe without the gun? Yup. Because there's always something else.

Likewise even before the sword, not everyone has wanted to use a rock or stick as a line of defense since their "invention" as a weapon of defense. Does that mean that those who were not versed in the rock and stick were killed?

There have also been drugs and alcohol since the beginning. Opium dens were replaced by moonshine and bars were replaced by acid parties were replaced by... I know I'm skipping decades, but my point is, drugs have always been around, and martial arts weren't open to the public back then. How ever did we live without the martial arts?

Columbine, what would knowing about guns have done if you were there? What would any knowledge of guns or gun play have done in that situation considering guns weren't allowed in school so all the kids who could have used the gun in self-defense wouldn't have had one!

You get mugged, you take out your money slowly, hold it up to show him, then toss it one way while you run the other. This comes from homicide police in New York City and Chicago. You have the greatest chance of getting away alive than if you make any violent movements or than if you stand there and keep feeding the guy.

Learn how to not get into the fight in the first place. That, to me is the epitome of martial arts combat and tradition.

[fat samurai]

How many people here would use a pre-emptive strike to defend themselves if they felt that the situation required it?

Also streetsafe, have you ever heard of a streetfighting methods teacher called Geoff Thompson. I am sure you would be interested in some of what he has to say.

Best wishes FS.

------------------<BR>"i can catch a fly with chopsticks!"

[JerryLove]

<< There's no way anyone is a quicker draw than a trigger finger already prepped. >>

Well... Not from a concealed carry holster anyway.